rudder problems

10-27-2009, 03:12 pm

great day sailing my 1984 30' Lancer yesterday until we hear a bang and lost all steering. could see that the quadrant was still turning and the rudder post was also still turning. Too dark to explore below by the time we got towed in. Anybody wanta tell me it's something simple so I can get some sleep? Thanks, Jack

*BobM* · 10-28-2009, 04:41 am

Sorry Jack. Doesn't sound good. Obviously if the quadrant is still turning you didn't merely snap a cable. Good news is that you still have a rudder post...the bad news is that if it is still turning normally you may not have a rudder anymore. Hope you are lucky and that the "fingers" inside the rudder merely rusted and snapped off. Time to call Fossfoam!

10-28-2009, 12:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobM

Sorry Jack. Doesn't sound good. Obviously if the quadrant is still turning you didn't merely snap a cable. Good news is that you still have a rudder post...the bad news is that if it is still turning normally you may not have a rudder anymore. Hope you are lucky and that the "fingers" inside the rudder merely rusted and snapped off. Time to call Fossfoam!

That's what I was thinking. Going diving tonight to find out. Cross your fingers for me.

10-28-2009, 03:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobM

Sorry Jack. Doesn't sound good. Obviously if the quadrant is still turning you didn't merely snap a cable. Good news is that you still have a rudder post...the bad news is that if it is still turning normally you may not have a rudder anymore. Hope you are lucky and that the "fingers" inside the rudder merely rusted and snapped off. Time to call Fossfoam!

Bob. I think it's worse than we thought. Not only no rudder but no shaft coming out of the hull. Is it possible the shaft snapped off within the hull? If I reach up where the rudder should be there is a hole where I think the shaft should be. Any thoughts? I have a call into Fossfoam for a new rudder and will call the yachtyard to see what the install is going to cost me. Thanks for the input. Jack

*BobM* · 11-01-2009, 07:18 am

Wow. That is strange. Did you confirm that there is a piece of post still inside the hull? You'll find out when you pull the remnants for sure. Sounds like you hit something big, like a log. I'd pull the boat if I were you. You might have keel damage too. Does the 30 have a bolted on keel or is in integral like the 28? I know it was a very different design.

*BobM* · 11-01-2009, 07:18 am

Did you call your insurance company?

11-02-2009, 07:48 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobM

Wow. That is strange. Did you confirm that there is a piece of post still inside the hull? You'll find out when you pull the remnants for sure. Sounds like you hit something big, like a log. I'd pull the boat if I were you. You might have keel damage too. Does the 30 have a bolted on keel or is in integral like the 28? I know it was a very different design.

pulling it saturday. if I feel around down there it feels like a jagged tubular edge like it has rusted through? My marina estimates around $2500 to pull and replace shaft and rudder from Fossfoam. Don't think I hit anything. Tampabay is pretty clean. We had about 15mph of wind and I had my 150 Genoa up. pretty good strain on a rudder with a rusty shaft, if that's what it was. Not sure about keel. I don't see any bolt heads in the bilge area. Is that what I would expect if it was bolted on?

11-02-2009, 06:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackryan

pulling it saturday. if I feel around down there it feels like a jagged tubular edge like it has rusted through? My marina estimates around $2500 to pull and replace shaft and rudder from Fossfoam. Don't think I hit anything. Tampabay is pretty clean. We had about 15mph of wind and I had my 150 Genoa up. pretty good strain on a rudder with a rusty shaft, if that's what it was. Not sure about keel. I don't see any bolt heads in the bilge area. Is that what I would expect if it was bolted on?

Your boat had a S/S Rudder Shaft when you get a new one the shaft is in place. This is an easy DYS job with the help of one other person. If the boat has been kept in salt water a little more difficult to undo pld fittings but doable .

11-02-2009, 06:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by lancerep

Your boat had a S/S Rudder Shaft when you get a new one the shaft is in place. This is an easy DYS job with the help of one other person. If the boat has been kept in salt water a little more difficult to undo pld fittings but doable .

Also your keel is Internal Ballast (3000lbs.)Bonded in place not bolted on.

*BobM* · 11-03-2009, 06:55 pm

I agree. $2500 is highway robbery, even for a marina, unless it covers everything. By everything I mean haul, removal of the old stuff, inserting the new rudder, installing the quadrant, cables, and a sea trial. If you go that route get it in writing.

Personally I'd tie an anchor to the rudder, submerge it and put it in myself. You are in Tampa for crying out loud. Just be careful and put on some sun screen ;-) At most I'd pay for the haul and for some time in the slings while I installed it and secured it. If the quadrant is a bolt on and the keyway is cut by Foss why pay for the easy stuff? They are doubling the cost of the rudder. You will be into this for $4 or 5k!

*BobM* · 11-03-2009, 06:57 pm

Be prepared for keel damage too, if you hit something. Did you inspect the keel when you dove?

11-04-2009, 06:47 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobM

Be prepared for keel damage too, if you hit something. Did you inspect the keel when you dove?

wow. thanks for all the info guys. I'm sure i didn't hit anything. too clean a "snap" sound. but i will be prepared. My bad in not saying that the $2500 included a new bottom paint job so the price isn't too far out of line. I got a price direct from fossfoam on the rudder and the marina says he can get it from them and save me a couple hundred because he gets a better price. pretty established marina with a good rep in the area. As for living in Tampa............it was almost 75 degrees yesterday!!! can't get in the water in those kinds of conditions!! If lancerep is right and it's a formed keel, what kind of damage could there be?

*BobM* · 11-11-2009, 06:30 am

If the fiberglass is compromised water can seep into the keel. The keel was likely ballasted with steel or lead scrap or shot with epoxy dumped unto it. It is a bigger problem up north, because of freezing.

*Fairwind* · 11-12-2009, 05:59 pm

I just pulled the rudder out of my 28 to replace the bushings...It has a SOLID 1.75" stainless steel shaft. It would be almost impossible to "snap it off"..I suspect the bolt attaching the top of the rudder post to the steering quadrant fell out or sheared off and the rudder simply dropped out of the boat and sank..

*BobM* · 11-13-2009, 07:13 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fairwind

I just pulled the rudder out of my 28 to replace the bushings...It has a SOLID 1.75" stainless steel shaft. It would be almost impossible to "snap it off"..I suspect the bolt attaching the top of the rudder post to the steering quadrant fell out or sheared off and the rudder simply dropped out of the boat and sank..

The 25 and 28 are VERY closely related and I know for a fact that my 82 L25 had a hollow rudder tube. He's just going to have to look into it. I agree 100% that the replacement should be solid. I have solid on my current ride and it is very comforting. Plus water actually used to condense inside the tube on my old rudder...I swear it was a major source of water getting into the rudder.

*BobM* · 11-13-2009, 07:14 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackryan

wow. thanks for all the info guys. I'm sure i didn't hit anything. too clean a "snap" sound. but i will be prepared. My bad in not saying that the $2500 included a new bottom paint job so the price isn't too far out of line. I got a price direct from fossfoam on the rudder and the marina says he can get it from them and save me a couple hundred because he gets a better price. pretty established marina with a good rep in the area. As for living in Tampa............it was almost 75 degrees yesterday!!! can't get in the water in those kinds of conditions!! If lancerep is right and it's a formed keel, what kind of damage could there be?

Yeah Jack...rub it in...watch out for those Manatee's...they bite.

*Steve22116* · 11-13-2009, 07:07 pm

The rudder tube is one area I've yet to inspect on my 1979 L25. She had been on the hard for many years before I bought her in March... plenty of time to dry out. What do you think about using expanding foam to fill up the space if upon inspection I find the rudder and post in good order? They make a foam for sealing cracks in ornamental ponds. Steve

*BobM* · 11-15-2009, 08:35 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve22116

The rudder tube is one area I've yet to inspect on my 1979 L25. She had been on the hard for many years before I bought her in March... plenty of time to dry out. What do you think about using expanding foam to fill up the space if upon inspection I find the rudder and post in good order? They make a foam for sealing cracks in ornamental ponds. Steve

It couldn't hurt as long as you use closed cell foam not open cell foam. Closed cell foam doesn't absorb water like open cell, which is like a sponge. The ornamental pond stuff is probably a good choice, as long is it doesn't expand too much. That would be my other criteria...you would be surprised how much foam can expand. I'd probably be cautious with it, as while unlikely, you don't want to go crazy with expanding foam and then had a rudder shaft that jams in the tube!

I have heard of others using thickened epoxy with success. I like your foam idea, but I'd probably seal it at the top somehow, perhaps with epoxy, to ensure that I got a nice air and water tight seal at the top.

Also, be sure to seal the gap where the rudder and tube meets with some silicone. This is a another common source of ingress, in my experience.

*Fairwind* · 11-15-2009, 10:32 am

I have just dropped out the rudder on our L28 and carefully examined everything. The rudder post is a stainless tube, 1-5/8 in diameter. The tube is 1/4" wall thickness. The "bearing" is a full-length piece of PVC pipe glued inside the fiberglass tube structure that is part of the hull. The fit between the stainless post and the PVC pipe bearing is very close. I am going to use some thin brass shim stock (3" wide) top and bottom to take the slop out of the bearing. I don't know how the brass shim and the stainless shaft are going to get along, but I guess I'll find out..I know, stainless shim would be better, but I don't have any stainless..

11-16-2009, 01:50 pm

Finally got it pulled. As I thought the stainless steel shaft snapped at the hull line. no damged to hull or keel. You guys are right on the mark according to my boat yard. Fill the shaft with some kind of expanding foam. He is going to order a new shaft and rudder from Fossfoam for me and ask them what they recommend as a foam fill. Another question for you Lancer guys. The old shaft did not have anyway to attach an emergancy tiller to? I thought the 30' Lancers had a way. Again, my boatyard guy is going to ask Fossfoam about walding on some kind of hex head for me to create some kind of steering tiller. Your thoughts??